Topic #2. Is Interracial Dating a Form of Self-loathing?
(Showing 1-15 of 15)

1. Is Interracial Dating a Form of Self-loathing?
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:15 PM/EST

as a multi-racial man i find that my black friends resent me when i date a white woman and accuse me of self-loathing and 'selling out'. personally, i feel this is unfair, but i can appreciate that women of color can feel as if one of their 'brothers' is rejecting them and their race when they are on the arm of a white woman. i'm conflicted. when i do date white women, it isn't because i hate my brown skin and i'm ashamed of my af/am side... to me it's more complicated than that. not to get to oedipal about this, but my mom is white. a white woman raised me. i love and respect my father's culture and i feel more identified as black because that's how i was socialized and how i was judged. but... how can me dating a white woman be self-loathing when the closest individual to me growing up was white? that being said, i have found that when i date women of color there is a sense of understanding and shared experience that i don't have with white women who i feel can sympathize, but can't really 'empathize' with my experience and the things i deal with from day to day... i don't know... i'm still struggling with this stuff that's why i'm looking forward to discussing it... i'd love to hear the toughts of men that experience the same thing, women of color, and white women that have dated other races...

2. listen to your heart
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:30 PM/EST
doug

If people make judgements about you based on the color of your skin, they are racist, right? Why is it any different if they are making judgements about you based on the color of the girl on your arm? People who make these snap judgements about you are usually simpletons who refuse to deal with their own inner conflicts regarding race. They are projecting. If you follow your heart, and you are aware of what you are doing and why, let people think what they want. But if you consider these people to be your friends, you need to have an honest dialogue with them. Find out what their fears are, why they are so challenged by your decisions about who to date. This is their problem, don't make it yours.

3. Self-loathing or socioeconomic climbing?
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:53 PM/EST
bianca

dbl_scorpio:

First, let me say that I don't classify people for myself as 'biracial' because I think each individual is one race, regardless of their ancestry. So, for instance, I would consider you a Black man whose mother is white. Most people in the world are of mixed ancestry and don't really have to explain their genealogical background to classify themselves racially.

I have often noticed that 'biracial' people whose mothers are white have the identifying conflict you mentioned more than those whose mothers are Black. I've wondered if it was for the reason you mentioned, that people have a psychological need to be associated with their mother, even racially. Does anyone else have any thoughts on that?

I don't think that dating outside of one's race equates with self-loathing, but under current societal conditions, I think it almost always does indicate something along those lines with respect to Black people. Most of the Black people I know who date outside of the race are trying to escape some aspect of their racial identity. It seems like they are stragically aligning themselves with other races in these interracial relationships, not mainly for love and uderstanding, but attempting to separate themselves from the disrespectful treatment Black people are subject to at times. I definitely understand the desire to change the way we are treated, but I don't think we should have to try to escape our own racial identity in the process. People are worthy or unworthy of respect based on their individual actions, not their race or who they associate with.

I know that some people will be angry with me or offended by me saying that many people get involved in interracial relationships for reasons other than love and understanding, but it is true. I do, however, know that some people are in interracial relationships because they are in love, but I think those people are an underwhelming minority.

4. Follow your heart?
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 8:02 PM/EST
presby

Let's not confuse prejudice with racism. The purpose of racism is paralyze a "race" of people socially, economically, personally, spiritually,etc.Prejudice is a preference.BLK people in this country do not have neither the power and/or influence to be racist.

I've heard BM who date WW say they are "building bridges betw the races", but are they participating in any political,civic,or social organizations that are striving to do this?

5. A Former Boss
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 9:30 PM/EST
910gale

I used to work for a Regional Manager, who happened to be Black. I am Black, and he used to always make comments about "those white people..." He was a very dynamic guy, well dressed, well spoken, MBA Northwestern. When I knew him, he was married to a Black woman. He and his eventually did divorce. He eventually left the company we worked at and married one of the white co-workers in the office. His ex-wife said that he aspired to have everything the white male managers had. It is my understanding that he has changed the way he speaks to emulate white people more, and encourages his oldest son who lives with him to date white women exclusively.

6. just a few thoughts
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:53 PM/EST
doug

First of all, after reading some of the above, I begin to understand what you are up against, dbl scorpio! There really is a lot of anger directed at interracial couples. Hang in there buddy. And once again I say follow your heart. I don't know that I like the term bi-racial either, but it is ridiculous to try to deny one whole side of who you are. It is hard to grasp that someone wants to force the term black on you when your mother is white. On one hand, you are chastised for rejecting your people, and then almost in the same breath you are asked to deny your own mother. Absurd. I think there is a political agenda here that goes way beyond the love of family.

And why does dating/marrying someone of another race have to mean you are denying your own people? By coming into contact with difference, we learn about ourselves. I do not want to be black any more than my wife wants to become white. That is a neurosis which people love to imagine, but again, that relationship would be destined for failure sooner than later.

And frankly, I don't buy this idea that black people cannot be racist. That's a copout, and it is usually followed by a separatist diatribe.

I am not trying to incite an emtional response, but understand that when someone makes a blanket statement about how most people involved in interracial relationships are not in it for love,

I am offended and frankly surprised by the simplicity of that kind of stereotyping.

I really think people need to take a good hard look at why they are so bothered by people whose skin color is not the same loving each other. This is a complex issue for some, but it is also pretty simple. We are here. We love each other.

And we're not going away. In fact we are having children who will be better equipped to handle the wonderful complexity of a multi-racial world.

7. black on black racism
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - /EST
friendly

I have found that racism is not just white on black, or black on white. A big portion of it is black on black. I was raised to just respect people no matter what their color is. People in my own race have called me sell out or wanna be. I have to admit sometimes I do get a little jealous when I see a black man with a white woman. But, that is a issue I have to deal with within me. I have been in an inter-racial relationship before and I have a four year old beautiful son as a product of the relationship. I have found that people are afraid to talk to me concerning the subject of my son. I can tell that they have questions, but they are afraid to ask. I think that people should just begin to be honest with themselves and admit to the fears they have, or rather the insecurities they have.

8. Can't we all just get along--:)
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 1:01 AM/EST
candace

Man oh man--you truly opened up a can of worms on this one, didn't you scorpio? What can I say...I guess I can begin with an old and blue cliche, "love knows no color." Simply put, I believe that. But, what I believe and the reality of the racial polarity dividing this country(after 400 yrs.) is another thing. As an ethnic group, Blacks continue to struggle with their identity in this country. One of the most powerful statements in the American Love story series was one in which Bill states,"Black culture is dead in America, we have assimilated." He continues to elude to the fact that integration was the worse thing that happened to Black Americans. But, my main point being, we, as blacks, must be careful of our definitions of "blackness". We need to think about where these definitions come from and how these definitions are perpetuated. I believe as a culture, Blacks must continue to work toward an all-encompassing definition of who we are--a definition which involves our history, as well as guides our future. We have to learn to look beyond the looking glass that society has placed before us as our cultural definition. Like most images, it's lacks depth....Oh, there is one more thing I wanted to address. Scorpio, this ridiculous notion of you being attracted to someone because they remind you of one of your parent--it just doesn't wash...psychologists and scientists around the world are grappling at what causes human attraction. There is still no definitive answer--last I heard, deals with a genetic stamp or coding(you are born w/ a code of physical characteristics which causes you to be attracted to another person). Again, this like the Freudian oedipal complex is just one of many "scientific" theories on the causes of physical attraction. In sum, Scorpio, if you want to date a white woman, then do so--this should have little to no bearing on your identity as a "black" man. When in doubt, always stay true to yourself:).

9. Please read, Doug
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 3:59 AM/EST
bianca

I'm not sure if you were speaking of me, Doug, but dbl_scorpio, is not up against me. He is a Black man and I am committed to and dependent on his success. I am not opposed to anything he does unless it is intentionally harmful to other people.

Also, I definitely didn't say that dbl_scorpio should deny any side of himself, but it should be understood that most people who are classified as Black in America are actually a mixture of different races and ethinicities. We can assert our identity as Black people without marginalizing within ourselves, and I think that approach would help a lot of people who are only aware of the recent (present generation) racial mixing in their family to overcome their self announced problem of racial and/or cultural alienation. Also, biracial is not a race in itself.

I also liken my way of looking at the 'biracial' issue to American-born people with same race parents from another country. While their parents may be from the old country, the children are Americans.

I think that the alienation problem is often caused by 'biracial' people wearing their mixed ancestry like some type of badge and expecting to be treated better that other Black people are; this is a carryover from slavery that allowed the children of slavemasters and slaves, who were still slaves, to do work in the house and receive preferential treatment. That, no doubt, causes a lot of Black people to separate themselves from 'biracial' people with that attitude.

(continued)

10. Please read, Doug (continued)
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 4:04 AM/EST
bianca

I know plenty of Black people with Black parents who look more like the products of interracial relationships than people who actually are. They look that way because of miscegenation further back in their genealogy, but without denying their non-Black cultural roots, they still identify as Black people. It always seems ironic to me that people don't accuse them of denying part of themselves. It seems to work for them, so I think that it might be a solution for Black people with a white parent. I have often been surprised to find out that people who I assumed had two Black parents have a white parent. Knowing someone's parents' race(s) isn't necessary for me until it will affect our interaction.

Doug, I also don't think your children are any more well equipped to deal with a multiracial world by virtue of the fact that his/her parents are different races. I get tired of hearing people say that the way to deal with issues surrounding multiculturalism is to consciously create more mixed race people. I've encountered this diverser than thou attitude countless times and I think you need to think about where it comes from. Being married to a Black woman doesn't automatically exclude you from being a racist, either.

Also, Doug, I did say most Black people that I know who are in interracial relationships. I don't know that many of the however many million people are in interracial relationships, so my sample is limited. I can only make definite statements about what I have actually seen and question the rest to gain some understanding. I was not stereotyping.

I'm not bothered by people of different races loving each other at all. Love is always positive.

(continued again)

11. Please read, Doug (continued again)
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 4:08 AM/EST
bianca

Lastly, Doug, I think you are defensive. I came to this conclusion because of the tone on your post in this thread and your response to my post on 'we will always get more attention.' It doesn't sound like anyone is attacking you, yet we are all still entitled to our opinions.

I agree with Friendly that Black on Black racism is a serious issue in the Black community. I don't think it is actually racism, but it has been called color consciousness or being clor struck. I think it is an issue that Black people need to really work on together.

12. Bianca!!
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 3:56 PM/EST
jeanmarie

You had me in your corner for awhile until you detoured off into how biracial kids wear their mixed heritage like a badge and assume they will be treated better than Blacks. This attitude is the most painful situation that my biracial daughter had to contend with when she was growing up. There was an automatic assumption among Blacks, particularly females, that she must think she's "better than". Because of this assumption, she often came home in tears throughout junior high and high school because a Black female called her a "no-count" and a "wanna-be". Her self-esteem was in the gutter, Bianca, and she had no refuge either in the Black race or the White one. She eventually made friends with biracial girls - all who reported the exact same type of abuse - and they clung to each other for support. It has taken her years to get her self-esteem up to the point where these unfounded assumptions don't cut through her heart.

13. Jeanmarie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 10:17 PM/EST
bianca

Although the attitude that you daughter may expect some special treatment by informing other Black people that her mother is white may be painful, I think it is something to consider. What exactly is your daughter's expectation when she tells people that her mother is white? Is it possible that they label her a 'wanna be' and 'no-count' because of her actions? Were she and her 'biracial' friends drawn to each other because of their similar background, and that was perceived by the other Black children as an attempt to separate? Also, when children are forming their ideas around race, socialization plays a big role; sometimes it breaks down to dialect, musical taste, and other superficial stuff.

I don't know how familiar you are with the caste system that slavery in America has created for Black people, it is very real. At one time, most of the Black bourgeoisie's social organizations had a strict paper bag rule; if you were darker than the paper bag, you couldn't get in. People often enable the existence of the caste system unconsciously.

(continued)

14. Jeanmarie (continued)
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 10:25 PM/EST
bianca

I've rarely seen a 'biracial' person ostracized about their white parent to a greater extent than other people are teased for whatever they get teased for. I've actually seen more of the opposite; 'biracial' children being more accepted by Black and white people. There is an old Black saying that goes, "If you're Black, get back. If you're brown, stick around. If you're light, you're alright." A lot of little Black girls make up gestures to go along and do them while they're playing. It's like a mantra. I think your daughter and her 'biracial' clique will be alright once they build stronger identities.

One of my 'biracial' female friends told me that when she spoke to a 'biracial' man she thought she might be interested in on the phone the first time, she told him she wasn't interested in dating him if the fact that one of his parents is white was one of the more important things in his life. They laughed in agreement. She went on to tell me she's encountered that mentality all too often in the past and didn't want any part of it. For some reason, a lot of people don't want to admit that there are 'biracial' people who focus on having a white parent more than other people do, but there are.

15. in 40 years
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:05 PM/EST
farmington

How will you feel about your personal choices forty years from now? Will black, white or otherwise matter then? I never believed I would love a person of a different race in 1959. Now I can't imagine loving anyone else.

In the mind of God there is only one race:

All the people who have ever lived; all the people who now live; all the people who will ever live.

And if there is a soul, and your intelligence survives the grave, will your soul have a race?