Topic #20. Illegal Immigration
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1. Illegal Immigration
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 10:12 PM/EST

Kilimanjaro's post about class struggles being at

the bottom of many race struggles got me thinking

about my feelings on illegal immigration. This is

one area where I do feel some resentment.

I will make some distinction between those who are

coming to the US as refugees. I feel we bear some

responsibility as human beings to help in these

situations, but when people immigrate illegally to

the US primarily because we have better economic

opportunities, I feel resentful. Maybe it is an

issue of integrity, maybe it's the increased

strain on already stretched social resources. But

maybe it's also class struggle...

Can any of you give me a new perspective on this?

2. Illegal immigration
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 3:48 PM/EST

At the risk of going out on a limb I will share my position on this issue. I do not believe in "illegal immigration." I am an historian who wanted to be an anthropologist. As such I am aware of the migration of peoples on the planet from the begining of humanity--even prior to homo sapiens. Animals migrate. We are animals. Indigenous people on this continent had an idea that was common among tribes/clans for millenia. "The earth belongs to all of us." In the case of the Western Hemisphere, so-called illegal immigrants were "here" until forced into circumscribed areas. Mexicans, so called today, were people who migrated up and down the western part of the continent, followiing the seasons, as have nomads forever.

When greed wins over perceived loss we have the concept of "illegalimmigrants/aliens." The nation-state is a relatively new idea in human history. Did you know that Italy and Germany only became "nations" in 1871. Now the European Common Market is the BEGINNING of awareness that human- made lines on the earth are not what nature put there. Remember, it's not nice to fool Mother Nature! I am respectful of "wet-backs" because I know the land my great grandfather bought in Texas was stolen from their ancestors. I am, also, respectful of all native people because I know how they lost their land, culture and livelihood. As a human (Afro-Eur-Asian) I regret what some of my ancestors have done to one another, up to today, and I keep that in awareness in my life.

A different perspective? Yes. Accurate history, Indeed. You asked. Thank you.

3. Migration
Sun, Oct 3, 1999 - 11:37 AM/EST

You do have a point, Geri. At the base of the

argument is the idea of private ownership vs. no

ownership. Physically living in a given area is

one thing, but we are talking about more than

land, there is also the system. We live in a

capitalistic system. People who move here

"illegally", do get the benefits of that system

without contributing to that system. That is what

I'm responding to. I don't know that it's an

issue of greed, as much as it is an issue of

responsibility for me. If you take the one world

position to an extreme, should we as a nation be

sharing our wealth with all other countries in the

world without compensation? Would this be world

communism (no private property)? It is certainly

something to think about.

4. to bbc
Sun, Oct 3, 1999 - 4:56 PM/EST
alicia

I live in Santa Barbara CA where there is a high

concentration of immigrants from Mexico.Many of

them I suppose are illegal. These are probably the

ones working for substandard wages as day laborers

and living in extremely crowded conditions. Rent

in SB is very high. These same people are probably

afraid to seek medical care when needed and are

forever anxious that they will be found out.I

wouldn't want to be in their place and hardly

think that they are benefiting from our system in

a way that matters much to us. Many immigrants

hold green cards which offers greater access to

the benefits. My boyfriend is a British green card

holder. He pays taxes yet has no voice in our

government. Ironically, he calls this "taxation

without representation". A person can't even work

at Macdonald's without a green card. As for

educating illegal aliens in our public schools.

Well, I believe an educated individual will

benefit our society much more than someone cast

along the fringes.

America is a glutton of resources from all corners

of the globe. If we are going to take than we

shouldn't be surprised if the people are going to

follow.

5. Illegal immigration
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 11:46 AM/EST

bbc,

I am curious why you feel resentfull towards illegal immigrants. Do you feel that they drive down wages, steal jobs. Do you feel that they overburden our social services. Do you dislike the fact that illegal immigrants don't learn english and live in segregated communities. Perhaps there are reasons not listed above.

6. Still trying to figure it out...
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 11:07 PM/EST

Well, I'm not altogether sure why I feel this way,

but it's not the language or separate culture. I

do think illegal immigrants put a strain on the

community and the nation in various ways. I know

in some places, they have set up shanty towns,

closing public parks. Schools feel the strain -

crowded classrooms, ESL programs - all of which

must be funded by those who are "legal".

They can't take legitimate jobs for fear of being

deported so what do they do? One choice is

picking crops - not especially good for their own

health or welfare in many cases, and certainly not

profitable. But I also worry that when legitimate

means aren't available, there are underground

options - crime, prostitution, drug trafficking.

Maybe I'm just a prude. The rules are there -

instead of breaking them - go through the correct

channels OR try to create opportunity in their own

country OR the countries could adjust immigration

quotas. I don't like the sneaking - I'm big on

responsibility.

7. Illegal Immigrants net drain or gain?
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 3:26 PM/EST

bbc

I can share with you my observations. The is no conclusive evidence to suggest that illegal immigrants are a net contributor or consumer of local and national resources. Although, groups pro and con illegal immigrants trot out different statistics to back their political views. For example illegals consume health care resources, but they comsume less then the general population for fear of deportation.

As for educational programs like ESL, that is a much more complex topic because you also need to include legal aliens that require the program. You also get into discussion on whether we should be an English only nation.

Illegal aliens contribute by taking low wage jobs that no one else wants, at least at the wages they are willing to work for. They pick crops, work in gardens and restaurants. If we took the illegal immigrants out of the equation then we would have to pay a lot more for fresh vegetables, restaurant food etc. I am not placing a value judgement on this outcome, simply stating a generally accepted view. I remeber that the last immigration reform act, I think 92, had a rider to exempt seasonal crop pickers in California and Washington. I also heard a radio report that fruit farmers in Washington and California are worried this year about unpicked fruits due to increased INS deportations of its labor force.

Illegal immigrants do commit crime, but my understanding is that they are mostly misdameanors. Again because there are here to work and send money home and do not want to get deported. I also understand that drugs is a problem that does not really effect the illegal immigrants (Only people with leisure time have the luxury for drugs).

8. Illegal immigrants net drain or gain cont
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 3:41 PM/EST

These are just some counterpoints to your concerns. But again, there is inconclusive evidence in monetary terms whether illegals are a net drain or a net gain. You are certainly entitled to an opinion based on another value system. For example you choose cleaner parks over low fruit/vegetable costs.

My personal feeling is similar to geri, but I do not advocate a completely open border. I do think that a country should have some symbolic control over its borders. However, since countries through out history have been unable to completely deter people who vote with their feet, I don't think the US government will be any successfull. In fact, living in San Diego I know that there are plenty of illegals getting here daily. I prefer a policy of see no evil, hear no evil. Basically, have an unenforced illegal immigration policy.

I do completely share one of your views. One way to curb illegal immigration is to improve economic conditions of the source communities. However, as their governments have been unable to so, are you as a tax payer willing to help with the bill.

9. Right on!
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 5:52 PM/EST
alicia

Kilamanjaro, please reconsider and write magazine

articles. You are very thoughtful and

thought-provoking.

Once again: I agree with you.

10. All good points, but....
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 10:39 AM/EST

This issue does create tension for me because it

pits several of my core values against each other.

Self sufficiency vs. compassion, integrity vs.

need for opportunity, the rights of a community or

nation vs. the rights of individuals. For me it

is not a simple matter of paying more at the

grocery for fruit.

Of all the good points that all of you have put

forth, the one point I would disagree on is

regarding drugs and crime. The drug problem, both

use and trafficking crosses all economic lines and

there is higher incentive for those on the bottom

to participate due to lack of opportunity and high

immediate reward or relief. In the case of

illegals (Mexicans or boat people...), it may not

be the first generation that is the problem - it

is the second generation who don't want to live

like their parents have and so find another way.

And crime follows drugs. In the end this cycle of

lack of opportunity, drugs and crime, can have a

great negative impact on communities. For those

who come legally, opportunity exists and the

temptations of easy money are less.

More comments are welcome - it is helping me

clarify my feelings and thoughts and offering me

new ideas.

11. Values represented by illegal immigration
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 3:38 PM/EST

Thanks Alicia. One of my goals in life is to be accepted in a non-technical publication. When I actually have original ideas to contribute...

bbc,

I am not so sure that the issue of illegal immigration necessarily should lead to conflicts of your core values. One can consider an illegal who manages to save enough to build a cinder block house once he returns to be self sufficient. I am not sure these people want our compassion. I live in So. Cal. and have never seen any illegals asking for handout.

By integrety I assume that you refer to following the rules. But some of the migrant work force have been comming up for many generations. Should not a sensible law account for this? But then, how do you distinquish between villages of origin that have history of previous migration versus villages of origin that do not.

My main opposition to the current illegal immigration policy is is enforcebility. How much should the government spend to stop a migration path whose true benefit and costs we don't know for certain? Outside of increased funding for the Boarder Patrol I have witnessed additional side effects of stronger enforcement. Rural communities now experience higher traffic and crime becaues illegals are forced further and further east into more inhospitable terrain. The death reate of illegal immigrants increases. The increase in high speed chases which were almost unheard of a few years ago. Smuggling of illegal aliens is becoming more profitable than drugs. Can the control of organized crime be far behind if it has not already occured? I suspect that illegals do not return home as often because of the increased risks. I know personally of one case myself. If illegal do consume resources, this would suggest higher consumption.

I think the above also address community rights versus individual rights. Sorry for harping so much on INS, but I find it a bit vain of us to go buck human nature in this case purely for the name of sovereignty.

12. Minor point
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 5:09 PM/EST

Compassion is NOT the same as handouts in my book.

My definition of compassion is trying to see

through the other person's eyes, recognize their

suffering or struggle and act with kindness and

acceptance. Saying I shouldn't feel in conflict

means to me that you aren't really able to

understand what I'm wrestling with yet and it

denies my reality. It is how I do feel and what

I'm trying to understand. We are coming from two

different perspectives and I'm not sure we really

understand one another entirely on this issue yet,

but maybe that's enough said for now.

13. Values cont.
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 6:20 PM/EST

Ben quoted an ivory tower scholar in another thread who thought US society is built on slavery. I would argue that in economic terms current illegal immigrants constitute the cheap labor of such a system. We don't need to create more opportunity for illegals. The opportunity is embedded in our economic system or they will not come.

On the issue of crime. Again, I don't remember statstics but my sense is that illegals make better victims then perpetrators due to fear of deportation. I certainly agree that crimes and drug problems are more pervasive in the generations born here. But is that different than legal immigrants, or all residents in general.

I don't know of statics comparing per capita crime/drug rate of illegal descendants vs legal vs general population to validate or contradict bcc's position. Neither do I know of data on net increase of crime/drug attributable to them. Is any increase statistically significant or negligeble? If you only look at the absolute increase should not that logic be extended to legal immigrants. If one considers poverty as catalyst for crime/drug, then one must also consider that historically the majority of immigrants legal or illegal occupied the buttom rung or their source communities (I exclude the Native Americans for simplicity of discussion). In fact, the poverty angle is similar to arguments against Chinese, Italian, Irish, German, Jewish immigrants, and Okies entering California during different periods of our past. Certainly each group impacted its host communities, sometimes negatively. But I doubt many will argue that on the whole the legacy is negative. So how is the current illegal migration, or for that matter, legal immigration different. Have we reached a saturation point? Does our economy no longer favor immigrants who are willing to put their nose to the grindstone? While we don't have conclusive evidence to support this claim (not that it does not exist), it does ring of slogans past.

14. Last Values post... Really, I promise
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 7:16 PM/EST

I have targeted mainly illegals of South/Central America origin. Upon reflection, I consider their possible temporary residence in this country to be of negligeable difference from legal/illegal boat people or any other immigrants.

bcc, I misunderstood your idea of compassion. I didn't score well on my SAT word association either. I will amend by stating only that I think illegal immigrants can be considered relatively self sufficient.

I do not imply in any way that you should not feel internal conflict. I meerly suggest that viewed from a slightly different angle, they need not be conflicts. That is if you agree with that perspective. We may try to have rational discussions but we humans do not think or act in a completly rational manner. I only need to look at myself to confirm. This irrationality is a luxury discussion groups like ours enjoy that is not afforded those heralded ivory tower scholars. High ideals are beautiful, but I consider their use limited without taking into account human characteristic.

bcc, I don't expect to change your view to match my own. It has never happened. I only hope to shift it a degree here or there, if you find my assertions somewhat reasonable.

15. Immigration--period
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 7:25 PM/EST

I am at a disadvantgae, one of those ivory tower acdemics. The history I was taught and later taught led to my perspective on immigration. As I tried to indicate in my first post, the people referred to were "illegally" deprived of their homeland over the past 500 years, first by Spain, then the USA. I have no place in my perception for them/us. Thinking of "ours" and "yours" in the context we're exploring, I think, helps maintain separation. As a person of African descent--in part--I hear the worries and arguments about "illegals" as too close to those directed towards "blacks" over time. My spouse used to come home from the office with "Polish" jokes printed on the copy machine at work.

I asked that it stop, because the stories were the same as about "blacks" a generation before. Kilimanjaro, you're right about perspective. I see two general orientations among people that I call "life affirming" and/or life denying." We choose one direction or the other and live out lives in that direction. I want to affirm all life, not just those like "me." In my case that could be by gender, history, social class, age, education... I don't want to do that. Primarily, I observe that schools have done a very poor job of offering "fair" histories. Did anyone see last night's PBS on SAT scores and admissions to college? I've known that "unfairness" for a long time. What the originator of the SAT wanted and worked for is the exact opposite of what has occured with testing. Keep 'em out. they're bnot like us. Given that, scientifically speaking, life originated in Africa and migrated everyone is an immigrant--but "illegal?" Not to this person. Sorry this is ending. Good luck to everyone.

16. Illegals...
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 10:04 AM/EST

I've posted on the brainstorming board. It hit me, legal or illegal? The election in India confirms a truth about realtionshps in a broad way. Sonia Gandhi is Italian, married Ragiv Gandhi, became an Indian citizen, learned Hindi--she's been criticized for reading her speeches-- reared her children as Indian (will they honor ALL their "mixed blood?") She was defeated by a coalition of CASTES who label her an outsider. I pass over the failures of the Congress party during fifty years tenure. That is the nature of political/economic power.

When does a person move from illegal to legal in the minds of others? This is philosophical but the results for people are real. A neighbor insisted on calling a new family, "the Mexicans." The family, a well-to-do, cultured physician, wife, two childrem, grandmother and servant, were from Chile.

Since moving to this southern state the standard story, no joke, among us outlanders is that the "natives" don't consider anyone a "citizen" who was not born in THEIR county. I was introduced to a young "black" male as living in a certain county. He proudly said, "I'm from ---( a different) County." Separation,exclusion, is ingrained. If it is the most ingrained in homo spaiens I divorce myself. I hope it is able to be transcended--soon. You've heard of the continuum of lies--damned lies--statistics? Construct the formula carefully and almost anything can be "proven," +/- the SD.

Plese do not denigrate thinking from ANY mode, Ivory Tower, the field or factory. It takes all for synthesis. Hundreds of clean fingernail types--like you, but older, are spending time in the flooded areas comforting fellow humans in any way they/we can. Does this count as practical living? I glean a bit of bias agin' some who try to think AND do. No offense, but it does hurt. Another exclusion added to the ones of race, gender, age, outlander...

A good life to all.

17. Mostly response to Geri.
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 2:14 PM/EST

Geri,

I have re-written my response several time because I found each attempt to long worderd and defensive. Here is my latest attempt.

I have but the upmost admiration for those who do and think. I personally know some whore are younger than me. I mostly think and talk, and talk, just ask my wife.

I can only wish to belong to an ivory tower. However, I have chosen a career path that will only lead me to the coffe shop table. I am one of those who know just enough to be dangerous. My negative comments are but poor attempts of self-deprecation.

I want to clearify that I was discussing illegal immigration in well, current legal terms without additional judegment. That is why I asked bcc to differentiate between offsprings of legal and illegal immigrants. Typing "Illegal immigrant" is shorter than "those who come to this country contrary to its draconian, unjust immigration laws". For the same reason I have shortened it to "illegal". I will refrain from use of illegal alone in the future.

I see only slight differences in our position on immigration, although arrived from different paths. We both vote against current immigration policy, I mainly for enforcebility, you for fairness. For the same reason I don't advocate an open border policy. I suspect such an announcement will result an influx that seriously strains local host communities beyond the breaking point. With a don't ask don't tell, geographic proximity and ease of travel determine who enters the country countrary to its rules. This is the best comprise I can think of.

As the ratification of the Earth Union political structure has yet to be passed by all nations, I think it reasonable for local nations to have some symbolic control of its borders.

18. So much for short and non-defensive response
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 6:07 PM/EST

We need hard numbers along with historical facts to validate our points, otherwise they are but conjecture. The documentary on SAT scores used statistics to verify that SAT results are biased. The tool can be, and has been misused, but it is non the less important.

Acadamic institutions (which I include think tanks, research groups) has the responsibility to present to us facts undistorted by emotion. I think the achievements speak for themselves. But how to transfer that rational thinking in terms that us "pigs rolling in the mud", to misquote a German philosopher whose name espcapes me, can appreciate. The best I have achieved is to have someone think "You are OK for a Chinaman." after sharing a beer/tea/soda. It is not much of a start, but who knows, the ripples of a pebble tossed in the pond...

Can we identify with, celebrate heritage of a subgroup without deamonizing, scapegoating against another? Can we simultaneously belong to several? I hope so and prefer it to only membership in the human group.

I feel that we may accomplish even more by taking advantage of human flaws when possible instead of trying to eradicate them. To recognize shortcomings such as greed, insecurity is not to unconditionaly condon them. Perhaps we can use one's insecurity to help him/her feel the insecurity, struggle of others. Geri, were you not attempting the same by relating the trials of Native Americans, Blacks, etc. I only ask that in addition you have more patience for those of us yet to master these internal, genetic? urges. The inclination to circle the wagon is no less human then the longing for greener pastures. Asking US citizens to completely open its borders seems as plausible as convincing people not to come.

As for the rest, Geri and many others have proven more eloquent and certainly more concise than myself.

19. Philosophizing...
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 11:17 PM/EST

Reflecting on the disagreements between myself and

others and between some of you in this thread, I

am reminded how tricky communication can be. One

thing I do know is that when I truly feel accepted

and listened to, disagreement is not a problem. I

merely want to have what I've tried to express,

understood. I am not interested in changing

anyone's views. In fact, I know without a doubt

that the only one who can change my views is ME,

all others can do is offer new ideas which I can

weigh against what I hold as true. Also,

statistics do have limited value, in the end my

truths come out of what I feel in my heart and my

life experience. Listening to other views,

without judgement, helps discussion move forward.

It's like brainstorming, some of the ideas may

sound crazy to me or to you, but they may have

merit. I'm not sure that any of my ideas led you

to think in new directions, but hearing your ideas

broadened my thinking on this issue, so thanks.

20. Re Philosophizing
Fri, Oct 8, 1999 - 2:08 PM/EST

bcc,

Your ideas did lead me to think in different directions. Some of it I posted, most of it not. I want to elaborate on each, but as my thinking is undeciplined to begin with, I thought it best to leave out any views I have yet to clearify myself.

I need to thank you and others who actually stake a position, so someone like me can poke and prod it, educating myself and sharpening my gray cells in the process.