Topic #16. Are education and economics the key?
(Showing 12-26 of 55)

12. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:07 PM/EST
ben

Anyway, for my part, I concentrate on education (myself, family, and community), and financial stability, because these are at least essential, although not sufficient, aspects of life needed to survive and thrive in the society we live in. I can't really comment on other "minority" groups and how they will be and are now affected by racism; in fact, how this all plays out for the future of the country is well beyond my precognitive powers. But in my estimate (and it is my hope against belief), that for this country to eventually see something like a racism-free society, it will be through the efforts mainly of the minority groups together working on the problem. I don't see whites substantially contributing to the effort; a small cadre of liberal thinkers, maybe, but not the great mass; racism benefits them far too much. Once again, Derrick Bell: "Crucial to the this situation is the unstated understanding by the mass of whites that they will accept large disparities in economic opportunity in respect to other whites as long as they have a priority over blacks and other people of color for access to the few opportunities available." Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

13. To ben:
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 9:47 PM/EST

You seem to be saying that whites can't have a

voice in helping change racism in this country.

Unless whites do become a positive voice and join

in the effort, how will a solution that benefits

all groups be reached? It doesn't have to be an us

against them mentality. In my view, shifting from

"us against them" to "us together" is essential to

the solution. There may be benefits to whites to

allowing racism to continue, but there are

far greater human benefits for whites by reaching

out, dealing with racism and becoming part of the

solution. It benefits all races to work together

and learn from one another.

14. to bbc
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:52 AM/EST
ben

No. Not can't have, but don't have. It won't be the initiative of whites which ultimately pushes this nation toward some sort of equitable "solution," if such a thing is ever resolved (remember, IMHO). Rather, as usu., it will be a choice of crises: Either there is capitulation under pressure (as in the 60's under threat of complete social unrest in the cities and a police action abroad, not to mention the eyes of trading partners beaded on the trouble), or some truly radical and reckless response ala Nazi Germany (never say it can't happen here). The human benefits you allude to are not often shared unless as a response to some threat. If you can find a historical case in this country where this is not true, I'd be grateful, and might then begin to feel some hope for the Great Eventual Conciliation. And it's always been a them against an us in this country; whites vs. Native Americans, whites vs. African slaves (and their freedom), whites vs. the Chinese (esp. on issues of employment re:displacing the white male worker), white men vs. the suffrage movement, white robber barons (and for some time, the courts) against the worker and unions, whites against returning Black servicemen (lynching), whites against school desegregation, whites with Jim Crow, whites dismantling the gains of the Civil Rights Movement with alarming alacrity, esp. almost all aspects of Affirmative Action (an ongoing process), etc. (cont'd)

15. to bbc
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:55 AM/EST
ben

Yes, there was indeed a small, committed group of whites who fought alongside the group(s) in question in this nation after identifying their cause(s) as a righteous cause (the cadre I mentioned), but only after significant suffering on the part of the oppressed group, and without the same (by far) at stake. I'm often puzzled at what seems to be ahistorical considerations of the future when speaking of the future of racism in this country. There are patterns in history that of course bear on the present and the future. I ask you this: If the idea, self-evident, that all races working together benefits all, why has this notion never flowered here, in the US, this liberal democracy we call great? When, then, will there come the grand epiphany, when we all conclude that yes, finally, it's time to join hands and nation build in a truly egalitarian fashion? I mean, the idea has to come from somewhere to begin this change, and logically, should it not originate with those for whom there is the most to gain and the least to lose, relatively speaking? So, I reiterate, the critical mass will be of POC. Whites may join in some action in a small number, as in the past, but only after the situation has reached (or passed) the crisis stage. Every mass movement in this nation concerning POC points to this eventuality. Whence the hope for some alternative mass enlightenment? Sorry for the diatribe, but I get agitated when I'm confronted with this pie-in-the-sky societal forecasting. Where does it come from? And again, I hope I'm wrong. (BTW, those are real questions. Please enlighten this doubter).

16. To Ben
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:06 AM/EST

I agree with what you said Ben.I in my opinion

believe that the only way racism is going to end

is through higher levels of business ownership by African-Americans.Not just in music & sports etc.

But in areas such as the technologies and health care market.Already there is a national shortage of those needed for the technology fields.There has to be some massive effort to come up with a solution to eradicate low self esteem,which becomes a perpetual and generational albatross around the necks of entire families.I think one solution that I have seen work is teaching a poor child and their parent how to navigate in the computer world. Even after saying all of that,I still fear that deep down in the psyche of our country,there is the need to have a group of people that everyone can say,at least I am doing better than them.This is also the reason why I think a lot of police misconduct has been tolerated for so long.Have you noticed that the people that they damage the most is never the most dangerous.Any way all of this may be a moot point,because by the year 2020 half of america will be non-white and for our own survival as an american family we will be forced to raise everyones educational standards to help maintain our brave new world of technology.The corporations are too smart to continue to import educated people from other countries,who may turn out to be spies gathering info to take back to their home countries.I See the future of America being bright.We'll get it together.

17. to ben
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:11 AM/EST
alicia

ben, I am black and would like to see affirmitive

actions policies dismantled. We fought hard for a

Civil Rights Amendment which denounced

preferential treatment. I hate to be a stickler

for rules but that should include EVERYONE.

Affirmative action is the only thing hate groups

can whine about with any credence.

You feel that a racism-free society can only be

obtained through the efforts of minority groups.

I'm afraid racism is a pinball bouncing off of

everyone scoring points. No one is immune to it

and no one holds a monopoly in it. So who are

these POC? Are we talking about blacks, hispanics,

asians, native americans? Have these groups formed

some coalition to fight racism? Did someone forget

to tell the black gangbangers who harrass the

korean merchant in Venice Beach or the group of

hispanic highschool students spewing out racial

epithets at blacks. What about the native

americans in their soveriegn nations: have they

been invited to join this American POC movement?

Are we talking about America or maybe globally.

Can we convince the Tutsi and the Hutu to stop

lobbing of limbs long enough to work towards a

racism-free world? There's some messy stuff going

on in Chiapas, Mexico. I'm sure they can halt

their activities to join the POC movement against

racism. You couldn't even get a Guamese and a

Japanese in the same room. I'd personally like to

join a more stable coalition.

I honestly believe that when the scales are

balanced out there is a lot of hatred in humanity,

alot of biases and a lot of discrimination and we

are all carrying the weight. Sometimes color

doesn't even play a part. We ALL, bar none, should

be a part of the solution.

18. Amen, Alicia and Thanks Ben and Johnizen
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 11:54 AM/EST

Thanks to Ben for bringing up some of the

frustration and anger that historically is

completely understandable. I agree, the white man

as a group has a long laundry list of atrocities

in this country. Even though the whites may have

a heavy load, as Alicia points out hatred, bias

and discrimination are a HUMAN problem.

Unfortunately fear and greed and more common than

courage and love, but I remain hopeful that the

power of love will prevail.

Johnizen has some great points about economic

solutions. Maybe schools as institutions can

create grants/programs to increase the

opportunities for poor students and their

families.

I believe that solutions come first through

individual and local efforts and they can grow to

movements. Examples? Just last week in USA

Weekend, the feature article was about two

churches, one black, one white in St. Paul,

Minnesota whose congregations chose to become one

church in order to build better racial relations.

It started with the two ministers meeting and

wondering about solutions.

But let's keep it simple. On a given day - What

can I do? What can you do? For me - I can be open

to friendship with those of color and show

understanding. I can confront my father when he

makes racist remarks. I can be senstive to and

support students I work with who are feeling

harrassed. I've strayed into political solutions

from time to time, but these individual actions

are real for me.

Ben and others - what have you done either as an

individual or politically that helps you feel you

are making progress on this issue?

19. to alicia: Affirmative Action
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:30 PM/EST
ben

Hi Alicia. Actually, affirmative action policies were put into place to reflect the spirit of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as was reaffirmed in the 1991 amendments. It was a legal attempt at recognizing the disparity between certain groups and the mainstream yet to be bridged which would give them the equal footing so that yes, eventually, all people could be treated as having come from a level playing field. It recognized that the fact remains, the gap has not been closed. What exactly is your specific argument against affirmative action? Have we arrived? Is there now a level playing field we can all agree (with a sigh) has us fairly involved in the national dialogue? The hate groups I've monitored mainly point to the seeming tokenism of affirmative action, when in fact to read the act reveals the aim (as yet not reached) is to give unrepresented groups the right to compete on levels where they have historically not been allowed. If this is preferential treatment, allowing historically misrepresented groups to engage in society in an equal manner, I would ask that you please reassess your definition of preferential.

20. to alicia: POC and Racism
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:33 PM/EST
ben

Once again I have to point to language, and what we precisely mean when we use words. Please see my earlier post on racism vs. other words. What you describe seem to be cases of prejudice and hate. Of course, no one has a monopoly on these emotions. Yes, we are talking about Blacks, Hispanics, Asian Americans and Native Americans. Actually, coalitions do exist among POC. A recent example is the call for boycotting network TV's premiere week jointly made by the NAACP, La Raza, and AsAm in the Media, and American Indians in Film (founded by Sonny Skyhawk). to protest the lack of representation on TV. As to gangbangers - as you well know, they come in all colors. And they are foremost, criminals. Certainly you are not implying they are a representative group from any community, of whatever ethnicity?. Everyone spews racial epithets at times. And yes, Native Americans have been invited, and some have accepted the invitation. A good for instance is the Piquot (have you seen their photos - they're Black Native Americans, and they own a casino). Other groups like the Mashantucket Piquot are now acknowledging their mixed heritage with African Americans and many previously disbanded Nations are coming together under a new banner inclusive of African slave/Native American mixes. There was even an article about it in Newsweek. Out here in the NW, there are coalitions between AfAms and Native Americans, esp. surrounding issues of homelessness and teen suicide (try the Emerald City Net for more info).

21. to alicia: Global Racism?
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:38 PM/EST
ben

I made a point of specifically speaking about the US. If you like, why not start a global issues thread, to allow for more diverse opinions.

22. to bbc - my community involvement
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 2:11 PM/EST
ben

Well, as I pointed out, I do believe in higher education, esp. for POC (but education for everyone; I choose to focus on POC; but there are plenty of poor whites who are educationally disenfranchised - bbc, perhaps a project?). And economic empowerment. When I say this, I point to community self-sufficiency, not to some global capitalistic scheme. For instance, I view compulsive gambling as destructive a habit as say heroin addiction, but I was made to concede the boon to the Native Am. communities here and elsewhere based on the casino at a meeting recently. But mainly, it's the coalition building that gets me excited. Specifically, fundraising efforts where you see all hues making monetary and time sacrifices, which pretty much amounts to giving up life blood in this society. I learn a lot from these projects, esp. where it concerns the main problems as perceived by members of a community. Only after moving to the West did I learn of the appallingly high level of teen suicide on many reservations across the nation (highest of any group). This is an area I have been focusing on recently, as well as curbing high rates of alcoholism. These are a few specific instances. Others are the usu. - money to causes, pickets, letter-writing campaigns. But what hits me personally is getting disadvantaged kids into college (which means making sure they survive to attend) and making sure they graduate, then helping them in their professional searches.

23. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:17 PM/EST
ben

Comrades:

This writing coming from a former Republican President may shed some light on current realities. Please let me know how you feel about this.

Warmly,

Bruce Lightner, Raleigh, North Carolina, http:www.king-raleigh.org, FYI and Consideration.

Inclusive America, Under Attack By Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times Op-Ed, Sunday, August 8, 1999

24. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:26 PM/EST
ben

Comrades:

This writing coming from a former Republican President may shed some light on current realities. Please let me know how you feel about this.

Warmly,

Bruce Lightner, Raleigh, North Carolina, http:www.king-raleigh.org, FYI and Consideration.

Inclusive America, Under Attack, By Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times Op-Ed, Sunday, August 8, 1999

Of all the triumphs that have marked this as America's century -- breathtaking advances in science and technology, the democratization of wealth and dispersal of political power in ways hardly imaginable in 1899 --none is more inspiring, if incomplete, than our pursuit of racial justice.

The milestones include Theodore Roosevelt's inviting Booker T. Washington to dine at the White House, Harry Truman's desegregating the armed forces, Dwight Eisenhower's using Federal troops to integrate Little Rock's Central High School and Lyndon Johnson's electrifying the nation by standing before Congress in 1965 and declaring, "We shall overcome."

I came by my support of that year's Voting Rights Act naturally. Thirty years before Selma, I was a University of Michigan senior, preparing with my Wolverine teammates for a football game against visiting Georgia Tech. Among the best players on that year's Michigan squad was Willis Ward, a close friend of mine whom the Southern school reputedly wanted dropped from our roster because he was black. My classmates were just as adamant that he should take the field. In the end, Willis decided on his own not to play.

His sacrifice led me to question how educational administrators could capitulate to raw prejudice. A university, after all, is both a preserver of tradition and a hotbed of innovation. So long as books are kept open we tell ourselves, minds can never be closed. (cont'd)

25. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:48 PM/EST
ben

But doors, too, must be kept open. Tolerance, breadth of mind and appreciation for the world beyond our neighborhoods: these can be learned on the football field and in the science lab as well as in the lecture hall. But only if students are exposed to America in all her variety.

For the class of '35, such educational opportunities were diminished by the relative scarcity of African-Americans, women and various ethnic groups on campus. I have often wondered how different the world might have been in the 1940's. 50's and 60's -- how much more humane and just -- if my generation had experienced a more representative sampling of the American family. That the indignities visited on Willis Ward would be unimaginable in today's Ann Arbor is a measure of how far we have come toward realizing however belatedly the promises we made to each other in declaring our nationhood and professing our love of liberty.

And yet. In the last speech of his life, Lyndon, Johnson reminded us of how much unfinished work remained. "To be black in a white society is not to stand on level and equal ground," he said. "While the races may stand side by side, whites stand on history's mountain and blacks stand in history's hollow. Until we overcome unequal history, we cannot overcome unequal opportunity.

Like so many phrases that have become political buzzwords, affirmative action means different things to different people. Practically speaking, it runs the gamut from mandatory quotas, which the Supreme Court has ruled are clearly unconstitutional to mere lip service, which is just as clearly unacceptable. (cont'd)

26. To Alicia: affirmitave action
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:50 PM/EST

Alicia,I too being of African descent was against affirmative action until I had a personally painful experience.I was taking a test for a corporation in the electronics field and got 100%

on the test.One of the test overseers was a Bi-racial female and in conversation she told me that I was a virtual shoe-in for the job.She said that she was proud of me,but I had to pass a face to face interview with one of the bosses before getting hired.Alicia,not only do I speak well I carry myself even better.I was in a room during the interview with a white corporate type and his black seceretary.The next day the Bi-racial female called me almost in tears telling me that I didn't get the job.She told me that they hired the hot looking hispanic girl that got a 78% on the test.Alicia,I was one of those conservative pull yourself up by the bootstraps African Americans.But,that situation showed me that choices of employment etc.are made everyday without true checks and balances.If I was in a position of power to choose who I could have around me everyday in a work enviorment, I must admit,I would have picked the girl too.But that has nothing to do with merit.