Topic #11. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
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1. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:29 PM/EST

SusanV brought up a point about the narrowmindedness of people who don't accept her and her family, and I wanted to make this a topic of discussion. I understand your point quite well, but the narrow minded people I have to face in the south are in my own family, and I have always known and loved them...I do not love them any less because they feel the way they do..they have always felt that way, and I have always known it. I just want to illustrate this point because when people in your own family don't accept, it can make life very hard. I'm going to say something here that might not be very popular, but is nonetheless true in my case. Our daughter was born very light skinned, and though I would love her desperately no matter what color she was, it makes things easier with my relatives that she is light. When they look at her, they don't have to see a black person. cotd...

2. cotd...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:30 PM/EST

I tried to explain this to my mother one day, and she said, "Why do we need to discuss this, I don't want to talk about it." Let me say..I know this is wrong!! When I look at her, I totally see her father in her, I think of her as the best of both of us. I learned pretty quickly after her birth though, the polotics that would go along with raising her. My husband's mother has made innocent remarks as well, that are just as upsetting, such as, "I'm afraid to take her out by myself because people may think i've kidnapped her." Or last Christmas Madison and I went to her company party, and she commented to the man sitting at her side, that while all the families looked alike, and you could tell they were families, her's didn't. Now I love this woman, she's a great MIL for the most part, and has a wonderful sense of humor. But I have always felt it would be much easier for her if Madison were darker...and maybe too, in the future, easier for Madison...or harder..I don't know that, and can't know. But what I want to say is when the narrowmindedness is in your own family, you can't just brush it off, because you can't deny your own family--or shouldn't in my opinion. I will always want Madison to know my family, because I want her to know where I come from--because where I come from has a great deal to do with the person I am. I still love the people I grew up with. I don't hate them back for hating my husband and not being able to sit in the same room with him...if I did that, I would be just getting down on their level. But how to deal with people you have to see on a somewhat regular basis, who refuse to learn and grow? I'm interested to know your thoughts.

3. Go where the love is
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:44 PM/EST
jacqueline

Because my husband has a very large family, their reactions to our relationship are all over the map. His sister and I are best friends and his mother treats me as if I were her own. His father balances precariously between disapproval and acceptance, his half brother flirts scandalously with me and one of his aunts showed some disappointment when she learned that I wasn't from some place "exotic" like "Jamaica."

My strategy for dealing with all of this is to go where the love is. I have developed close relationships with those who were open to it and have created somewhat formal, polite relationships with the others. That's the best that I can do. I just don't have the emotional toughness to be vulnerable to personal rejection within the family. It's much easier to keep my distance. I guess that I am just lucky that the family members that I like, like me back.

Bethanie, it seems like you have more patience for the ones who "refuse to learn and grow." Polite distance from them is the only thing that makes sense to me. You have to protect Madison until she is old enough to understand "what's up with them."

One last thing Bethanie, while I agree that it is not appropriate to hate the people who hate, I do thing that you should formulate a clear position on the matter. I would have a big problem if my husband continued anything more than an aquaintance with someone who was openly hostile to me. To me, it's a matter of respect for our union and the family that we are. I guess what I'm getting at is that it is possible to be too understanding, too patient.

4. Jacqueline..
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 6:55 PM/EST

I couldn't agree more with you. And I do make it clear in my actions when spending time with family members who are less than understanding and accepting that my husband and daughter will always be my first priority. I have one aunt who has made subtle comments about my daughter on every trip we have taken to MS. I was patient with her for a while, trying to give her time to adjust, but this last time she wouldn't let up. She just kept making comments about how it was clear Madison didn't like her--OKAY?? My daughter is a two year old toddler who basically bases her decisions about people totally on how much fun they are to be around. Well, after the umpteenth time of hearing this back in May, and just about having been pushed as far as my own sense of tolerance and respect for other's feelings (based on my Christian upbringing that it is not our place to judge others) would take me. Well, she said it again, looked at her gun toating wonder of a husband and said, "Madison just doesn't like me." I looked at her and said, "Maybe it's your attitude." Let me also say that since my own family live in MS, and I in WA, I end up spending maybe two weeks a year in their presence. And I accept the fact that there are certain of them that I just will not see anymore, as they do not want me in their life. It is after all, their loss.

Bethanie

5. Bethanie
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 8:00 PM/EST

I have an easier time accepting the narrow opinions from my older relatives. I understand that they learned in their time that white people were here and colored people were there. Maybe they are too old to change their ways. The same is true for my husband's family. The older relatives remember a very different world where white people dominated, and colored knew their place. What I have a hard time accepting is younger people that know how wrong it is to hate someone just because of their color. And I will not make excuses for these people, but will avoid them at all costs.

I also try to empathize with what it must be like for my husband, knowing that someone will not talk to you or shake your hand because of your skin color.

As I said before, there have been a number of people, my family included, that have become more open minded since getting to know my husband. Marrying a black man, and having biracial children, more or less forced those who love me and are close to me, to accept Mike and our relationship.

I like to think that our relationship, on one level, has helped people to have a better understanding of two different races. And from a Christian point of view, isn't that what Jesus wants us to do?

6. susanv--
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:00 PM/EST

I totally agree with you..In order to make a clearer stab at having my own family situation understood, I would have to plot out all the oddities of my families peculiar dynamics. And I wouldn't think of boring you with such details. Let me just say, that those of my family who count the most, my brother, sister father and mother, do except my husband as family. It took some doing for my mother and father to come around, but none the less, they have impressed me with their abilities at changing. The family members I am talking about are older extended family...they do not change as easily, and growing up where things were just the way they were, no questions asked, has not made them particularly eager to change. Here's my philosophy. I try and show the same care and respect to all people, that's the way I have always been. And while I always put my husband and daughter first, I also want my daughter to learn this kind of care and respect for others. If I can teach her that, I think I will really have done something. I don't mean for her learn to let people walk all over her, but to know to respect other people's beliefs and feelings while at the same time protecting herself from harm. I think we could all learn to do this a little more, myself included.

7. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:21 AM/EST
smoothtap

This subject is a tough one because you have to deal with each person on a case-by-case basis. My wife was given a choice at 18 to live at home, pay for her school and even take her to NY to meet a nice Italian guy, or continue to see me and leave the house with nothing but the clothes on her back. As you can see she chose me. My father in law did not want her to date me at all. They refused to come to our wedding. The one thing that makes me very proud of my wife is that during these painful times she stood up for the choices she made. She told them I was in her life and we were going to be a couple whether they accepted it or not. Granted, it was the hard road and it took over a year for them to come around to even speak, but when they realized she was very serious and that she was going to be with me it was no longer an issue. I really believe that they only want the best for their child and worried about the loss of “white privilege” or in most blacks case “selling out”. They didn’t realize that the loss of privilege was worth the love that we give to each other everyday. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if you make a choice you have to stand up and let everyone know that it was your choice and that’s it. Once they realize that you’ve accepted it then it easier for them to accept it and move on. Today my FIL and me are OK, he tells everyone but me that I am the best son in law he has ever had. Now when my wife and I disagree my in-laws usually take my side, funny twist of fate (ha ha). Although I know my FIL and me are not real close we have developed a real good relationship based on respect and life is now good for all.

8. Narrowmindedness/Family Tensions
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:31 PM/EST
kusuf

I want to begin by saying that though I looked forward to the discussions that would take place here I have not yet joined in, partly because of time restraints and partly because of the medium through which it's taking place. So I have just read along and have neglected participating until now.

I have read through the above entries and I find a lot of tolerance for the narrowmindedness in mixed families expressed, and I do not share this. Race is the most important issue in this country and the behavior of my own family, though yes, it is objectively understandable because of fear, desire for assimilation, etc., is to me unforgiveable . My father's parents were Arab immigrants earlier this century. He and his parents and family were targets of racism. But he married a white French/American women, my mother and tried, I suppose, to assimilate as best he could. But in the course of this assimilation there were many things which were ignored, and and as is well known there is quite a lot of self-hatred among minorities, one effect of which is the distancing of oneself and one's family from the issues of race and heritage and trying to overlook behavior which is directed towards the minority groups in the name of getting on with life.

Many people say that we have come a long way since beating and hanging foreign immigrants or former slaves, or any member of a group who is not strictly 'white,' but I strongly disagree—I feel that the same behavior has simply gone subterraenean, but is still there, and any adult who as part of a family still actively contributes to an attitude of racism is wrong and should be adamantly told so.

Continued...

9. Narrowmindedness/Family Tensions
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:33 PM/EST
kusuf

Continuation...

This is not 'going down to their level;' it is the proper thing to do, for everyone's sake, because what would these people of whom you speak above so tolerantly do if they saw a minority being attacked on the street? I seriously doubt that someone who was a casual racist or who casually expressed views which skirted the boundaries of racism, whether explicit or tacit, would stick their neck out to help someone in need.

I simply do not think that cowardice and hatred, though indeed a part of life, ought to be encouraged at any price, for family unity or whatever, and I am very tired of the cliché 'going down to their level.' I no longer speak to my father or my mother, or any of my brothers because there is no way, any longer, that I will share in any sort of collusion with the mindset which engenders murder and dispossession. We as adults are ALWAYS responsible for our actions, and we all have to pay for what is done in our name. I gave my family members many opportunities, by speaking in depth with them, to amend their views but when, in the end, they didn't, and did not renounce harsh views of minorities and the underprivileged (which ironically my brothers and I are among but my mother will not acknowledge), I wrote them off as a great danger to themselves and others and thought 'If this is the path they want to take, then let them take it.' But I want to make it absolutely clear that I will not condone the suppression of or violence against anyone for reasons of race, sexual orientation, religion, etc., under any circumstances, even among my own family, nor do I believe that it should be tolerated in other families.

10. To Kusuf
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:49 PM/EST
jacqueline

For some strange reason, your post made me feel extremely defensive, despite the fact that I stand firmly behind the choices that I have made in my family. I don't tolerate expressions of racism in my presence, nor does my husband. But I have gotten to the point in my life where if a person can manage to treat me with respect, I am not overly concerned with what they "think."

I have found that most racist beliefs are pretty intractable. The average person that have prejudices against minorities groups does not consider themselves racist. And when you present yourself as an example of the error in their ways, they typically toss you into the exception category and continue believing as they always had. (Note: I am not unwilling to believe that I lack the necessary finesse to successfully deal with these situations).

The bottom line for me is that I am unwilling to make my family life into a war zone. None of the members of my family are perfect, myself included. For the most part, they are patient with me and I am patient with them. Anyone who seeks to cause us harm is excluded from our life, PERIOD. But, those with basically good intentions, who suffer from a lack of exposure, don't always say the right thing, don't really "get it" , etc. are welcome to stay.

I guess we all make our choices.

11. narrowmindedness is extremely annoying to handle
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:56 AM/EST
claddarng

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't posted anything until now, but it's because I was having a hard time just getting in this site. Anyway, I find that most people, of course not all, are narrowminded to a degree. I had a very close friend at one time. He no longer was a close friend when someone that we mutually knew was making a big stink about me married to a Jewish man with me being Catholic & having uncles & an aunt as clergy. The mutual friend was a supervisor at a large corporation in New York City. Well, as this jerk was ranting & raving about my marital status, my "close friend" was just laughing at me and not saying or doing anything about the remarks that were said. Now, I thought that this "close friend" would be someone who respected my wishes to marry a Jewish man, considering he came to my wedding, would not be so narrowminded, but he failed in the end. I am quite surprised on the ignorance of many people I know, that have made remarks to me, as well as, remarks about other races. I wish people could open their eyes, and see that these remarks only hurt people and it causes a seperation. Who cares, what the make-up of people are? As long, as you can get along with them, what difference does their background have anything to do with?? I agree with Jacqueline "where everyone makes their own choices".

12. Wow, I've missed a lot here...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:57 AM/EST

This is mostly for kusuf. I don't know what to say, except that you took my breath away. I'm sorry that you think I express tolerance for the racist people in my family. I think I stated that I no longer see the racist people in my family..that they are no longer a part of my life, partially because they choose not to be, and partially because(and this is most important to me) I will not allow my daughter to be threatened by their views or the dangers which knowing them my present to her or her sense of self. I was mainly speaking to those of my family who though have come around to 'accepting' my husband and I, still occasionally make offhanded remarks that make me uncomfortable. I generally answer these remarks with as much candor as possible, but sometimes the dynamics of my family make openness about such matters difficult.

Here's something else I would like to point out. I choose not to live my life in anger. I could very easily do that. I could easily get angry over every stupid question or remark or lear. But I don't. I think one of the big failures of interracial marriages, and I'm sure others will correct me on this, is that the marriage, once the novelty of being the 'mixed' couple wears thin, is really made of nothing. And that if you make your marriage into a forum for your social and political views, ie, marrying someone to prove a point, and then facing the world angry at it with your spouse, it just doesn't work. So I choose to be maybe more forgiving than I should of some, to preserve the peace that I have with my husband..that is, I may get upset at what is said or done, but after all is said and done, I leave Mississippi and go back to my husband--and I am always grateful to get there. I simply cannot live my life battleing everyone. Therefore I choose my battles carefully.

Hope you understand this, and I guess I was made to feel a bit defensive myself.

Bethanie

13. For Bethanie & Jacqueline
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 9:54 AM/EST
kusuf

Why defensive? It's not an attack. But I'm certain that these things begin in families, and ultimately I think that's where they'll have to end. Family unity places demands on everyone, from the most uncompromising to the most timid, and depending on the situation someone, or everyone, is going to get hurt. There is no way to avoid this pain. My response to both of you, and anyone else whom I haven't addressed specifically, is fundamentally I will not give lip-service to anyone, no matter who they are, over the issues of racial or any other kinds of prejudice — not for peace, not so my son can know his grandparents (or my wife's family, one grandfather of which, by the way, offered to pay for the vasectomy of the husband of one of his granddaughters who had married a black man). Though this is said tongue-in-cheek, even Hitler was a nice guy sometimes, or, conversely, no one is all bad.

Continued...

14. For Bethanie & Jacqueline, cont.
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:06 AM/EST
kusuf

Continued...

Yes, we do all make our choices, but I didn't really think that this forum would be a celebration of our gifts for the obvious. I wanted, or hoped, to get close to the heart of the matter — but I know that's asking a lot. I am not at all concerned with coded language of black youth, native american, etc.—"Whaz up," "You goin' to the Rez?" It reminds me very much of the common white youth trip here in Seattle: colored hair, begging on the street as a sign of coolness, platform shoes. They are, as do most minorities, stereotyping themselves and, I don't think it's such a stretch of the imagination, doing EXACTLY what the powerful and bigoted want, i.e., wasting their time on the petty things while others make, and keep, the rules. Divide and conquer is as old as hatred, and one of its best tools. So I want to end by saying this: I am reminded very strongly of a documentary I saw of PBS about the protests against the Vietnam War in which a priest was exhorting his parishioners to protest. They complained to him that if they did they would go to prison, and what then would happen to their children? they asked. His response was, "What's going to happen to them if you don't?" That response sums up every reason why I joined this discussion.

15. For Kusuf: perhaps we are dealing with a gender gap
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:01 PM/EST
jacqueline

I just re-read yours, bethanie's and my posts, and at the risk of over generalizing, I think that we are experiencing a gender gap in the way that we perceive these issues. I think that we basically agree that expressions of racism cannot be tolerated. But beyond that, it seems that our gender roles may be shaping our opinions. (Be patient because I am about to make a huge generalization). In my family, supported by observation of other families, men tend to be the warriors and women the peacemakers.

Even though I can be quite the warrior in my professional life, I am much more a peacemaker at home. Kusuf, you remind me a lot of my own husband. For example, when we were first married and looking for an apartment, my white skin privileged, upper middle class husband experienced discrimination for the first time in his charmed life. An apartment owner who had been thrilled to rent to him when he was alone saying, "you're just the kind of person we want here," completely changed his tune when he understood that the black girl over there was the wife ("is SHE you wife?"). My husband went to war. He contacted the fair housing board, the media, a lawyer, and even a friend at the Justice Department (I am not kidding). He was ready for hand to hand combat to teach this guy a lesson.

He was extremely confused when I told him that I was okay with him pursuing punishment for the guy, but I didn't want to force him to allow us to live in the apartment. He say something like 'we have to pursue this to the end or he will never understand. Just getting money damages is not enough.' While I understood the logic of his point, I was not willing to have my home be ground zero of the "race war."