Topic #9. Have you ever had to choose?
(Showing 1-15 of 40)

1. Have you ever had to choose?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:16 AM/EST
jacqueline

The pressure on Cicily to "choose" brought back a lot of unpleasant college memories for me. Though I am not bi-racial, I experienced a great deal of pressure to choose. When I went to UCLA in the middle and late eighties, my experience was that you had to choose. If you were going to hang with the black "in" crowd, you just couldn't really have white friends.

There were people who just stopped talking to me (cold turkey) when I started spending a lot of time with a really funny and smart guy who just happened to be white. And when I started dating the white man who would later become my husband, it was like I became invisible. It wasn't like very many people were mean to me, it was more like I had ceased to exist. I'm having trouble articulating exactly what it was like.

Has anyone else ever had a similar experience?

2. I think you've articulated it quite well...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:37 AM/EST

I don't think white people have the same experience...I've had both white and black friends all my life, and though i've felt some people looked down their noses at my choices, I don't think white people(speaking from my own experienc only) feel that same pressure to stay within their own color boundary when making friends. But dating and marriage their is pressure...I have some close relatives who now won't acknowledge my existence or that of my husband and daughter now that I've done this thing they don't understand. To them I'm invisible...and I have trouble saying, "Well, it's their problem." because these are people I've known and loved all my life despite their failings. However I would neve got back and change one thing about my life either.

3. Have you ever had to choose?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 1:13 PM/EST

Reading Jacqueline's post brought up some memories for me. I'm a white female that went to a high school that was 70% black, where I actually started in 7th grade. So from age 11 on, I was "socialized" in a primarily black environment. It shaped the friends I made, the music I listened to, the clothes I wore, the way I talked, everything.

When I went to college it was a mostly white school in the middle of a cornfield. The first few weeks I easily made friends with the people on my co-ed floor of the dorm, most of whom where white. But as the time wore on, I gravitated towards the black population at the school. The white frat parties where everyone sat around and drank and puked off balconies were not my scene. (Okay, I am generalizing a bit.) The black greek parties with pumping house music and dancing for hours were.

In the meantime, the white "friends" in my dorm were getting more comfortable and starting to show their true colors. Most were from white suburbs or rural towns and their sheltered-ness, ignorance and prejudice started coming out.

Soon it became obvious that I had a lot of black friends and some of the white people on my floor stopped speaking to me. Then I started getting copies of Ebony, Essence and Jet that someone on my floor subscribed me too. I'd also get crank phonecalls where an obviously white guy would try to speak, I don't know... what he probably considered "jive talkin'" and ask me if I remembered him. "Ya know, I's Leroy from Kentucky Fried Chicken."

Oh god, it was just pathetic... so I guess I had to "choose." I chose not to associate with the a**holes that suddenly developed a problem with me because I had black friends. I maintained a solid core of like-minded black and white friends and tried to steer clear of the idiots.

4. There is no choice
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:11 PM/EST
robbie

Wow. I thought it was just me. I've found that people always want to put you into a category. If you are really black then you can only like and hang out with black people. And if you are really white, then the same. I identify with all of your stories as I had the same experience in high school, undergrad and grad school. Unfortunately because I was young and lonely, I tried to keep my mouth shut long enough to make friends. But it would all go to Hell in a handbasket the minute we would begin to talk. These people would always want to blame white people and the "system" for our "situation". They would go on and on about how this group was so segregated or that group. And I guess that they did not want to hear that half of the reason for the separation between blacks and whites (not to exclude other groups) is that blacks and whites self-segregate. And people who self-segregate cannot then talk about how they are shut out of things. And the demand to choose is just another example of this. Why should one have to choose between interacting with your own cultural group and the majority cultural group. Isn't the ability to go between both worlds and be comfortable an asset? I think that people who try and force people to choose see the ability to be comfortable with everyone as a betrayal. In fact, if they were to articulate this feeling it would probably come out as "How dare you be comfortable with them"?!!!

5. Would there have been a big hoopla had it been reversed?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:16 PM/EST
robbie

Did anyone catch the two black students who said something about how the black people just wanted to be together and not deal with the white students? What would they think if the white students had said that they just wanted to be alone with other white people. And that they did just wanted to take a break from dealing with black people.

6. Choices.......
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:54 PM/EST

To Bethanie and Melissa,

I have to agree with you on that. I was not dating outside of my race then, but I had a lot of white friends and some people would be quick to put you into a box of white or black period. I had a room-mate whose mother was from the Phillipines and his father was black, and he, like myself had tons of black and white friends, but he was in the same box with me, marked "colored/black".

I do remember how the black students, especially women, would disowned any black guy who dared to go out with a white girl, and she'd better not have blonde hair and blue eyes.

My father, who is my role model once told me, "you can never please everybody all the time, just be true to yourself" and that is the way I see it.

7. Robbie--
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:49 PM/EST

One of the most interesting parts of the series for me is hearing the perceptions of the outsiders. The young man on the bus for instance who wondered if Cicily's father had imparted any of his knowledge of the African American cultural history on his daughter. It at once made me angry, and also really made me think. For I thought on one hand, how dare he make assumptions about what this man has taught his daughter, and on the other hand, I though that he is just living out the sterieotypes and generalizations he was taught by his parents. You are absolutely right..no white person in today's society (that is, if I could speak for all of us, which I obviously can't) would feel comfortable saying such things--though they may think them. It's interesting and telling that this man did feel comfortable. Knowing his voice would possibly be heard all around the country saying it. Thanks for bringing that up.

8. A little slack for the self segregators please
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:25 PM/EST
jacqueline

Even though I introduced this topic through a painful experience of my own, I do understand why a lot of people in non-majority cultures choose to self segregate. It's very discomforting to be misunderstood, treated with suspicion, derision or even just curiosity. The ability to tolerate such varies greatly from individual to individual (and for me, it can vary day to day). The truth is that it is easier to be around people who share a similar cultural background with you. There are fewer misunderstandings, more things that are just understood.

The only thing that I have found is that ethnic or cultural background is not always a strong enough tie between people who are otherwise strangers. There are just so many other variables. I've also found a willingness to search for other areas of common ground can offer some pleasant surprises. For instance, I recently became friends with a Ukrainian woman who is nine years my junior. On the surface, you would never expect a black woman born in Compton to have much in common with a white woman born in Siberia, but we have the exact same sense of humor. I find her company delightful.

I know that I am "preaching to the choir" but i just want us to be a bit more compassionate as we analyze these complex and very emotional issues.

9. never had to choose, but have often not been chosen ...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 8:37 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

In high school there was no pressure to choose ... for the longest time, the only other black kids in the school were my brother and sister! The college I attended had a small black population and there were flurries of self-segregation, but most of the black students had black and white friends. The two issues that have anything to do with color that have caused people to cut themselves off from me have to do with who I've dated and my hair (of all crazy things). When I've dated white men, people I thought were my friends suddenly forgot my phone number, my name, why they ever liked me ... When (eleven years ago) I stopped relaxing my hair, cut it off and started wearing a short afro, I had *lots* of problems. Suddenly people didn't seem to know what to do with me: I was an angry, militant separatist; I was a lesbian; I was passing judgment on all women who still straightened their hair (a black woman I'd been friends with for three years told me what a big mistake I'd made, spent about a month trying to convince me to grow my hair out and straighten it again, then stopped speaking to me altogether). This is, of course, barely even a tangent of this topic, but in my mind there's some small connection ... something about the way a black woman with natural hair is regarded. (... whether it's short or long -- my hair is shoulder length now and I wear it in twists like Cicily's)

10. Have you ever had to choose?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:44 AM/EST
smoothtap

Being black I have to choose all the time. In high school I chose between hangin out with my dawgs or being in the band. In college I had to choose between Engineering students and my boys. On the job I have to choose the way I talked around white people and black people. If I said "Yo whaz up" to white people at work than it’s considered not appropriate in corporate America and affects my pay check, however when it's just two blacks in the hall way we will say "Yo whaz up" just to remind each other that we're still black and haven't sold out. Is it right? no I don't think so but if you ask most blacks in corporate America they do the same thing if they want to work in America and still hold on to some of their black heritage. So what you have is a person that has choose in order to be successful in both cultures.

11. SmoothTap
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:29 AM/EST
robbie

But what about those of us who prefer not to code-switch? What about those of us who are just as comfortable saying "Hi SmoothTap. How's it going today"? What about those of us who are uncomfortable with speaking grammatically incorrect English and the thought that some outward action is necessary to indicate to others that we have not "sold out"? Can I not hold onto my heritage (all of it) without trotting out this behavior? And if I refuse to do these things, are you saying that I am not properly embracing my black culture? Why does it always seem as if there is some test that you have to pass to be seen as really black. Isn't the test really how much I do for my community? Or how closely I hug my family to me? Isn't it enough that I donate a portion of my salary and a good deal of my time to charities that address the concerns of those who have not had many opportunites (including of course black people)? Isn't it enough that the people that I love most in the world are black (My dad, mom, sister, brother, and best friend)? Why does it always come down to proving something. And one more thing, I don't need to do anything to "remind [myself] that [I] am still black". I have the happy reminder every day in the mirror.

Smoothtap, excuse me for taking part of your post out of context. But this was something that I had to get off my chest.

12. Robbie...
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:09 AM/EST

I know that is between you two guys, but I would have to agree with you Robbie. Being part of the "black community" has nothing to do with speaking ebonics with the homies. It is where your heart is as well as your head.

True enough, we all have to interact differently in different settins, but you don't shouldn't have to carry-on just to remind yourself or anybody else you are still black. All I have to do is just grab a mirror. Enough about that.

13. to Robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:32 AM/EST
smoothtap

I grew up in the hood and yes these people speak in slang or what you call bad English but are they wrong to use slang? These people are very good people and they have made the choice for whatever the reason to stay where they are and live life their way. I on the other hand decided that I wanted leave and see the world but I still cherish my original roots. Unfortunately I know that if I speak in slang at the office I would be viewed like you view it, in a negative manor and I would be stereotyped. I wish it weren’t true by that’s reality and it affects my success in the workforce. If I give up slang altogether then it affects my relationship with my family and friends in the hood. They would no longer feel that I could relate with them. It is right for me to go back home and try to tell these people how to talk act and live just because I chose to leave? When I lived in Germany for 3 years I had to learn the language and accept the culture so I could socialize with Europeans. What I am really trying to say is that we all have choices and along with those choices come good and bad. So as we make these choices lets make sure we can live with them.

14. Have You Ever Had to Choose
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 12:40 PM/EST
antionette

I wonder if the feeling of having to choose has more to do with culture, which varies greatly from city to city, than race. I dated across racial lines and only a few times did I experience any reprecussions from others. None of my friends or family cared. However when I, from Los Angeles, dated and later maried a country boy from the Ozarks, it was much harder. Our life experieneces were so different, and he did not fit the mould of my professional friends. He would not live in the city, we had different ideas of culture, and very different traditions. We had a lot to overcome. More so than my previous seriuos boyfriend, A, who was black. A and I, fit in our social circle together very well. He had the same educational and religious background as I. And though we may have been different colors, much of our goals were the same. What split us up was Geography, not color.

I am not sure what draws us to each other, but we should celebrate it when it happens. I have had to choose my husband over the life track that I was on. I, however, can not imagine being happier. And those in my life that realy matter are still here with me.

15. another random thought
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:38 PM/EST
robbie

Wait this is not an argument. Simply my point of view.

And SmoothTap, it was never my intention to say that people who speak in slang should be dissuaded from doing so. I simply want to present the argument that if you choose to do so, don't look down on me because I choose not to. I understand the pressures that you talked about in trying to show that you are still black. I have had this issue with my own family. I don't know how many times I heard the phrase "just like a white girl". The funny thing is that this phrase was half intended to be a compliment. Because let's all be honest---Ethnic minorities, in general (there I go again) value light more than they value dark. Go to AstroIndia and look at the marriage classifieds. Notice that these parents take pains to note whether their daughter or son is "fair".

I guess my point is that refusing to code-switch should not adversely affect your relationships. You just have to let the people that you love know that being black has nothing to do with how you speak, what you wear, etc. And disallow them from saying these ignorant things.

And realize that if someone whom you don't know very well does not code-switch, they are NO LESS BLACK THAN YOU!!!!